When you go woke, your theology gets broke

I knew about the “Social Justice” angle of the SBC “elites.” They have been very vocal about SJ for years. But finding out that they are now embracing “Critical Race Theory” is disheartening to learn, and it is causing a major riff (and possible split) within the denomination. The title and post by Mike Ratliff caught my eye, since “woke-ism” has been the new buzzword in politics. People who have attempted to just have a discussion about the beliefs of those in the woke crowd vs. what others think, mostly get the “I don’t want to hear it” reaction. Well, Mike Ratliff nails it with his title, and explanation in this post! Be sure to watch the video link within Mike’s post. It’s excellent! As Christians, we are to be discerning in order to recognize truth from error, just like the Bereans.

Possessing the Treasure

by Mike Ratlif

39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.” Matthew 26:39 (NASB) 

A few months ago, on Good Friday, Dr. Josh Buice posted the following on Twitter:

As We behold the slain Christ on the cruel cross on this Good Friday, we must never forget the truth!

Jesus was not the victim of injustice.

Jesus was the predestined substitute for sinners crushed under the wrath of the Father in order to fulfill holy justice.

Isaiah 53:10

Here is Isaiah 53:10:

10 But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will…

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19 Responses to “When you go woke, your theology gets broke”

  1. GMpilot Says:

    originally reposted by Mike Ratliff

    …Jesus was not the victim of injustice.
    Jesus was the predestined substitute for sinners crushed under the wrath of the Father in order to fulfill holy justice.
    Isaiah 53:10

    ‘Predestined’, hm? Does that mean that Jesus was on a designated suicide mission? But since Jesus is said to be God, and gods are said to be eternal, it was a futile attempt, wasn’t it? Jesus is still alive (according to his followers). If I rob or murder someone, I have to take the punishment, not some joe I never met who steps up and volunteers to be punished on my behalf. I wouldn’t call that justice; nor, I believe, would you.

    I find it hilarious that the SBC—a denomination founded primarily to find/support biblical justification for slavery—is involved in this at all. If there is such a thing as ‘holy justice’, then there’s such a thing as holy injustice as well. That’s what the Convention focused on in its beginning, and I’m sure that both the elites and the conservative members continued that idea for decades.
    Being ‘woke’ has nothing to do with it…unless perhaps, a community social network has a history of disparaging and excluding some members of those communities, often on the flimsiest of reasons. But I don’t suppose the SBC has ever done anything like that.

    Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      GM,

      First, it appears that you misinterpreted Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross as “suicide.” Jesus fulfilled most of the 360+ prophecies ( the rest will be fulfilled at his second coming) written about the Messiah in both the Old and New Testament.

      Second, your claim about “holy injustice” is not part of the equation. Jesus willingly went to the cross for our sakes, in order for us who believe in Him to be saved from the consequence for our sins… which is eternal death. He took what we deserved because of our sins, and placed them on His body on the cross. His death and resurrection brought eternal life to those who believe in him, and rescued us from eternal death. Those who repent of their sins, confess them, and ask Jesus into their hearts through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, have gone from death to life eternal.

      I know. You have heard all of this before and choose not to believe. So be it. We all have the choice to accept or reject the salvation of our souls through the only Person who can save us.

      Regarding the “woke” angle in the SBC split, it’s being used by some people in that denomination as just another excuse to cling to human ideas rather than the way of God in Truth as revealed in the Bible – God’s Word – which is far more valuable in both this world and ultimately in eternity.

      Like

  2. GMpilot Says:

    First, I only implied it was a ‘suicide mission’. Since Jesus didn’t kill himself, it wasn’t suicide. But he knew he was to be killed, because that’s what was necessary. (Also, since he didn’t really die, he wasn’t ‘predestined’, and so his death wasn’t necessary.)

    Second, my claim of ‘holy injustice’ is absolutely part of the equation. If I knew I was going to the death chamber tomorrow and someone I didn’t know appears and volunteers to die in my place, would that be proper restitution to whomever I had wronged? All my life I’ve been told that “if you do wrong, you’ve gotta take your punishment”…except in this one case. If you run a traffic light and get fined $20, I could pay your fine—but if I murder Sam’s wife and Jesus forgives me, that doesn’t help Sam, and it won’t restore his wife.
    To send an innocent person to die for the sake of the rest of the people is immoral and unjust, even if they’re willing. And to claim that the salvation will happen only if you believe in it is emotional extortion.

    It seems that some factions in the SBC have been clinging to ‘the way of god in truth as revealed in the Bible—God’s Word’ –a word which told them (and others) for centuries exactly how to acquire, own, administer, and punish slaves. It wasn’t just the ‘elites’ who did it either, no matter what Mr. Ratliff thinks. As I said earlier, his entire denomination was founded on this alleged authority.

    If this is the valuable word I’ll need in this world, where it has caused untold misery—and in eternity, where nobody will need it—I’ll pass, thank you.

    Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      GM wrote:
      “…He knew he was to be killed, because that’s what was necessary. (Also, since he didn’t really die, he wasn’t ‘predestined’, and so his death wasn’t necessary.)”

      You wrote that “he was to be killed” and then claim “he didn’t really die.”

      So tell me, GM. Why do you think that Jesus thought and knew “it was necessary?”

      Like

  3. GMpilot Says:

    GM wrote:
    “…He knew he was to be killed, because that’s what was necessary. (Also, since he didn’t really die, he wasn’t ‘predestined’, and so his death wasn’t necessary.)”

    You wrote that “he was to be killed” and then claim “he didn’t really die.”
    So tell me, GM. Why do you think that Jesus thought and knew “it was necessary?”

    Well…it has a lot to do with that ‘lamb of god’ business. We know that lambs were representatives of the best a man had to offer—a lamb being a highly valued possession–and that only the best ones were always to be sacrificed to the god, in order that the god might be pleased and forgive any sins the person, or his people, may have committed. Jesus saw himself as that Lamb, encouraged by such people as John the Baptist (John 1:29).
    Jesus also said, repeatedly, that his efforts were specifically for the “lost sheep of Israel”, and no one else. Not the Syrians, not the Romans, not the Toltecs or Polynesians or Cherokee. That ‘died for all mankind’ stuff came much later.

    Most Christians say that Jesus was “the final sacrifice”, meaning, I suppose, that the god was to forgive us all, forever. Except that in practice, a person must both believe that it happened, and profess that they believe it.

    To hear the ecclesiastical interpreters, Jesus knew he was to be killed all along. He wasn’t stupid; the talk around the region was that he was inciting an insurrection against Roman rule and the restoration of David’s kingdom. I don’t believe he actually knew his fate until shortly before he was arrested, but Matthew 26:39 (and :42) indicates he was aware what he was facing.

    His ‘death’ wasn’t necessary because he died and came back. My observation is that death is a permanent condition, and the more violent the method of death the greater certainty of its permanence. We have no real evidence that Jesus actually died; his body was removed and promptly interred. Living bodies seldom heal quickly from the injuries he is said to have suffered, and dead ones never heal at all. But apart from the story of the centurion and his spear, there isn’t any hint that Jesus really died (and all it proved was that he was still alive, because dead men don’t bleed).
    Jesus’ death’ also wasn’t necessary because the god could have forgiven everyone simply by saying so. What could possibly have prevented the All-Powerful from doing that?

    Liked by 1 person

    • christinewjc Says:

      This was a good reply and might lead to some informative discussions.

      At this moment, I don’t have the time to reply fully. However, I do have a few questions, and a comment or two.

      1. What is usually required for someone to receive forgiveness?

      2. Jesus had the power to raise Lazarus (who was dead longer) from his grave. There was corruption of the body already. But when he was raised, the corruption was healed and he became alive again. He later died as we all do. But what about his soul and spirit?

      3. Jesus had the power to heal the sick and disabled. Where did that power come from, GM?

      4. Why did some Jews and Gentiles believe Jesus was (and is) the promised Messiah, while others refused to believe?

      We have the luxury of Bible prophecy regarding the fulfillment of the Scriptures. And we are told, “blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe.”

      John 20:29 – Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[fn] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

      Like

  4. GMpilot Says:

    This was a good reply and might lead to some informative discussions.

    I hope it will. It’s been a very long time since we’ve had any.

    At this moment, I don’t have the time to reply fully. However, I do have a few questions, and a comment or two.
    1. What is usually required for someone to receive forgiveness?

    Nothing is ever ‘required’ for someone to receive forgiveness. One may forgive a criminal who had murdered one’s relative, even if the murderer never acknowledges the deed. One may forgive an institution that had committed vile things on other people, in the sincere belief that they were doing no harm. Consider the SBC and their public letter of 1995. The original 5perpetrators of those deeds (as well as their victims) are long dead, and the conditions under which they happened are all but gone …yet the SBC asked the descendants of the victims to be forgiven for it.

    Forgiveness can be granted even if the recipients have not changed their minds, or are dead, or never had it offered to them, or even knew that any such thing existed.
    Nothing is ever required for someone to receive forgiveness. All that is required is for the forgiver to forgive.

    2. Jesus had the power to raise Lazarus (who was dead longer) from his grave. There was corruption of the body already. But when he was raised, the corruption was healed and he became alive again. He later died as we all do. But what about his soul and spirit?

    First question: when did Lazarus die again? A year later? Ten years later? Does anyone know?
    Second question: exactly what is meant by “soul” or “spirit”?
    We had this argument years ago. We burned a lot of electrons doing it. You never did describe just what a soul is, but you were dead certain that mine was in jeopardy. Since I don’t believe in souls, I cannot claim to know if Lazarus had one, or what became of it.

    3. Jesus had the power to heal the sick and disabled. Where did that power come from, GM?

    I don’t know, Christine, and that’s the best answer I can give you. If you know, please tell me what it is, how you know that, and why you haven’t shared it with the medical community. If the answer is what I suspect it is, explain why Jesus never healed an amputee, or why his power was neutralized when he tried to heal in his home town.

    4. Why did some Jews and Gentiles believe Jesus was (and is) the promised Messiah, while others refused to believe?

    Probably for the same reasons they do right now; some are convinced, and some are not. Some say that Jesus fills all the slots a messiah must require, and others say that he wasn’t/isn’t qualified.

    We have the luxury of Bible prophecy regarding the fulfillment of the Scriptures. And we are told, “blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe.”

    We also have the evidence of Bible extortion: “He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already.”

    John 20:29 – Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[fn] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    John 3:17~18 – “He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

    Like I said, you gotta believe it and declare it before you get the forgiveness. Acts of mercy shouldn’t have strings attached.

    Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      GM wrote:
      “Nothing is ever required for someone to receive forgiveness. All that is required is for the forgiver to forgive.”

      I disagree. When it comes to salvation for one’s soul, repentance for one’s sins (at the foot of the cross of Christ) is required for eternal forgiveness, the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit in the believer, and entrance into God’s Kingdom.

      You may ask why?

      Because without repentance for one’s sins, the acknowledgement of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is missing.

      Luke 15:7 – “I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

      Luke 24:47 – “and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

      Acts 19:4 – Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

      2Co 7:10 – For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

      *****

      There are many more Bible verses that I could include here, but these should suffice in order to understand the need for individual repentance.

      …to be continued

      Like

  5. GMpilot Says:

    Because without repentance for one’s sins, the acknowledgement of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is missing.

    And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
    But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
    And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
    For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
    Luke 15:21~24

    The father in that story did not make his wayward son jump through hoops or make pious noises in order to be re-admitted to the fold. There was no “you gotta do this before I forgive you”. HE JUST FORGAVE.
    If a human father can do that but the heavenly father cannot, why pray to him?

    …please proceed.

    Liked by 1 person

    • christinewjc Says:

      The difference is that a human father chose to forgive his son, but what did the law (at that time) require? A fatted calf was killed as a sacrifice, and thus the son (who was dead spiritually) was made alive again through this act of salvation (that occurred throughout the Old Testament for the forgiveness of sins prior to the final salvation gained through the Messiah, Jesus Christ).

      You see, the Old Testament saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. Their laws and acts of sacrificial lambs foretold (and looked forward to) the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

      Like

      • GMpilot Says:

        You’re missing the point.
        The human father forgave his son. He did not call for the calf to be ‘sacrificed’ for anything; the text does not use that word. He called for it to feed his son, to celebrate his return: “kill it; and let us eat, and be merry”. You can use all the symbolism you like, but it remains that the father welcomed his son home without any conditions. None whatsoever.
        On the other hand, this god says “I’ll forgive you, but only if you do this.” That is hardly the unconditional love that I’ve heard so much about.

        CJW: You see, the Old Testament saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. Their laws and acts of sacrificial lambs foretold (and looked forward to) the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

        As I understand it, he’s still being looked for, because most Jews do not believe their messiah has come.
        They may be wrong, but you don’t know that.
        Sacrificing countless lambs to produce one eternal, all-redeeming demi-human Lamb makes as much sense as burning an apple orchard to produce one eternal, always-ripe Tree.

        I’ll respond to your follow-up later. Stay tuned.

        Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      GM,

      Is it possible that it is you who is missing the point?

      The Jews sacrificed lambs in the Temple continually – as an act for the remission of sins.

      Jesus is the ultimate “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” Therefore, such sacrifices in the Temple are no longer relevant or needed.

      Like

      • GMpilot Says:

        Exactly. Shedding the blood of creatures for no good reason–solely to mollify a bloodthirsty god none of them could demonstrate existed.
        In some ‘primitive’ societies virgin girls, and sometimes boys, were sacrificed to their god. Hebrews (and later, Christians) deemed that to be horrible, not realizing or caring that their customs did the same. Later, it became the fashion to shed the blood of enemies to atone for sins; ask the Amalekites about that.
        But the ‘sacrifices’ were never relevant, nor necessary.

        Enough of the detour. I’ll get back to your main theme, if you don’t mind.

        Like

      • christinewjc Says:

        Ah…so we are back to the “bloodthirsty God” mantra that you often used in the past.

        Then, you changed the subject by throwing in what primitive societies do.

        Then, you claim that this was a detour?

        I guess this discussion is over. Typical.

        Like

      • GMpilot Says:

        CJW: Ah…so we are back to the “bloodthirsty God” mantra that you often used in the past.
        Then, you changed the subject by throwing in what primitive societies do.
        Then, you claim that this was a detour?
        I guess this discussion is over. Typical.

        Surely you’re not going to deny all the killings done by, or ordered by, this god! Are you? That Book you live by contains the things I described as well as the things you described. Again, you don’t talk about that.

        I did not change the subject. Middle Eastern societies also practiced sacrifices, some of them human. It was common in those days, but that didn’t make it right. The sacrifice of the Chosen One was different only because he is said to have come back.

        Yes, it was a detour. You talked about what’s required for forgiveness by your god; I pointed out that the prodigal son’s father made no such requirement. He welcomed his son back home with joy and a nice fat calf (NOT a lamb). But it was only a detour; we got back to the main quickly enough.

        You’ve got the Apologetics certificate. You should be able to blow me away. But we’ve been doing this back-and-forth for almost seventeen years and neither of us has moved an inch. If you really want to open a discussion, you have to try something else. Snorting “typical” and walking away is not a good something else.
        I’ll repeat a reasonable question which I suppose you can actually answer:

        …the god could have forgiven everyone simply by saying so. What could possibly have prevented the All-Powerful from doing that?

        Like

  6. christinewjc Says:

    Continuing…

    GM wrote:

    “Jesus also said, repeatedly, that his efforts were specifically for the “lost sheep of Israel”, and no one else. Not the Syrians, not the Romans, not the Toltecs or Polynesians or Cherokee. That ‘died for all mankind’ stuff came much later.”

    When Jesus rose from the dead, he appeared to his disciples for 40 days. He specifically told them to go throughout the whole world to spread the Gospel. Back then, it was called “The Way.” Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by him.

    Jhn 14:6
    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

    GM wrote:

    “Most Christians say that Jesus was “the final sacrifice”, meaning, I suppose, that the god was to forgive us all, forever. Except that in practice, a person must both believe that it happened, and profess that they believe it.”

    Correct.

    GM wrote:

    “I don’t know, Christine, and that’s the best answer I can give you. If you know, please tell me what it is, how you know that, and why you haven’t shared it with the medical community. If the answer is what I suspect it is, explain why Jesus never healed an amputee, or why his power was neutralized when he tried to heal in his home town.”

    You answered above when you wrote, “a person must both believe that it happened, and profess that they believe it.”

    In addition to that, one asks for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. This assists us in Bible study, sharing the Gospel with others, and living our lives for Christ.

    GM wrote:

    “Probably for the same reasons they do right now; some are convinced, and some are not. Some say that Jesus fills all the slots a messiah must require, and others say that he wasn’t/isn’t qualified.”

    Yes. For example. Many Jews were looking for a conquering Messiah to save them from the harsh rule of the Romans. Jesus didn’t fit their narrative so he was rejected by some. The conquering Messiah happens when he returns at the Second Coming after the Tribulation (there are those who hold either to the pre, or mid, or post tribulation appearance, which is a huge topic in itself) and all that He does is speak to stop the war. Then, the Millennial kingdom will be on the earth for 1,000 years where all believers will enjoy life on earth as it was meant to be before the Fall in the Garden of Eden. There will be no death, no crying, no pain…for the “old ways have passed away to new life.” After the Millennial Kingdom, we all experience eternity with God in Heaven. This is just a brief description. There are many Bible verses describing this – including in the Book of Revelation.

    GM wrote:

    “We also have the evidence of Bible extortion: “He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already.”

    What you view as “extortion” is actually the reality that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Therefore, we are condemned already.

    But praise God for there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus!

    Rom 8:1
    There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[fn] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

    Like

  7. GMpilot Says:

    Continuing:

    CJW: When Jesus rose from the dead, he appeared to his disciples for 40 days. He specifically told them to go throughout the whole world to spread the Gospel. Back then, it was called “The Way.” Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by him.

    I guess Ezekiel got in before that, then. Like Jesus himself, he was not seen to die, and he probably got to meet the Father directly, without need for a divine intermediary.

    CJW: You answered above when you wrote, “a person must both believe that it happened, and profess that they believe it.”
    In addition to that, one asks for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. This assists us in Bible study, sharing the Gospel with others, and living our lives for Christ.

    I’m not asking about biblical study or living my life for Christ. He’s still living his life, or so I’ve been told. Therefore, he doesn’t need mine!
    I asked you why ‘he could perform no mighty work’ at home, and you tell me that I’d already answered it. But I still don’t know just how you know that, nor why you haven’t told the medical community they’re doing it wrong. IOW, human belief can give gods power, but it can also take power away. Do you agree?

    CJW: Many Jews were looking for a conquering Messiah to save them from the harsh rule of the Romans. Jesus didn’t fit their narrative so he was rejected by some.

    I’ve already mentioned that. There were other objections as well; according to at least one source, Jesus’ ancestry wasn’t as he claimed, since one of his forefathers, Jeconiah, had supposedly been cursed by the god (Jer 22:24 and :30). As for claiming King David as an ancestor, that could only hold true if Joseph had actually been Jesus’ father. But that’s not what Christians have been instructed to believe.

    CJW: …the Millennial kingdom will be on the earth for 1,000 years where all believers will enjoy life on earth as it was meant to be before the Fall in the Garden of Eden. There will be no death, no crying, no pain…for the “old ways have passed away to new life.” After the Millennial Kingdom, we all experience eternity with God in Heaven. This is just a brief description. There are many Bible verses describing this – including in the Book of Revelation.

    I’ve read the stories. I’ve also read about the scorpion-tailed locusts and how they’ll menace the world for five months, followed by the four angels and their army of 200,000,000. who will ride across the world, killing a third of whatever is left of humanity (because most will already be dead, since hail and fire and blood will have fallen, destroying all the grass and a third of all trees). Gonna be a wonderful day, but if it ever happens, most won’t be alive to see it, and you won’t be on Earth to see it (supposedly). This is just a brief description. But you don’t talk about that.

    CJW: What you view as “extortion” is actually the reality that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Therefore, we are condemned already.

    That’s right. Human law declares “not guilty” to be the default position; divine law says everyone is guilty from the moment we leave the womb. Truly, this god’s ways are not the same as ours!

    CJW: But praise God for there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus!

    Unless you commit crimes in his name…then it’s “depart from me, I never knew you” time.
    But who do you think will get a harsher reception—me, or Ravi Zacharias?

    Your quote from Romans demonstrates that no matter the propaganda, the god does NOT wish all men to be saved; or if it does, it wants a much smaller population of men to save.

    Like

  8. christinewjc Says:

    I will just leave this video here for the sakes of any people who are following along in this thread. I highly recommend it!
    God bless,
    Christine

    https://www.davidjeremiah.org/television/weekend?date=2021-07-18

    Like

  9. christinewjc Says:

    GM,

    I don’t post any links to the Daily Kreeps, so you can stop putting that in your comments.

    Apparently, you tend to look in all the wrong places re: info on the vote fraud. Gateway Pundit has up-to-date information and proof via the forensic audits being done in several states now, with additional ones arranging for such comprehensive forensic audits too.

    Like

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