B. Franklin Warned About “Keeping Our Republic.”

At the birth of our nation, the wise Benjamin Franklin was asked, “Sir, what kind of government have you given us?” He replied, “A Republic, if you can keep it.”

After 240 years, we can see why Franklin warned about “keeping our Republic.” He instinctively knew the hearts of men (and probably Scripture) and how the evil that men do… who do not know God, His Word, or Jesus Christ… would eventually work to take this nation in a downward spiral towards its destruction. This is why no “one” man or elected official could ever save us. Only Jesus Christ saves – and no matter what happens in this world (where Jesus said, “you will have trouble (tribulation)”; we know that only He can “fix it” if it be His will.

Our true and genuine hope is not in this world, because we are not of this world. Our true and genuine hope is in Jesus Christ and that through Him we are saved for all eternity!

My blogging friend over at Oil For Your Lamp wrote an interesting essay entitled, Superman’s America Has Been Conquered!

Superman stood for Truth, Justice, and the American Way. But no more!

Excerpt:

This nation has been conquered!

And the American people cheered while they watched it happened!

I look at what is happening in the United States today and I think:

There was a time when the Truth mattered to Americans.  That time is no more!

Today, we watch our leaders and media lie to us every time they open their lips, but we do not care.  We have learned to accept lies as the new normal.

There was a time when Justice mattered to Americans.  That time is no more!

Today, we watch people we know to be guilty tell us they are innocent, but we do not care.  We have learned to accept corruption as the new normal.

There was a time when this nation understood that ‘The American Way’ meant that you did not begrudge others their success: instead, we worked hard and tried to learn from their example so that we could be successful, as well.  That time is no more!

Read it all HERE.

 

I can certainly  see his point!

“Superman’s ideal America” sadly, no longer exists.  The decline started gradually, but has now exponentially tanked our nation into a pit of despair!

The prophecy of Scripture both warns us and informs us about what will happen the closer we get to the end times.  Those who reject God and His Christ have much to fear.

However, those who genuinely belong to Jesus Christ can “take heart…because Jesus has overcome the world!”

We pray that our God will heal our land. We pray:

2Ch 7:14

“if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Even then, the temporal healing is only temporary…and does not compare to the eternal healing that we can experience through being born again in Christ!

I pray that those who do not currently know Jesus Christ (and the salvation He offers to those who repent and confess their sins) will turn to Him and believe in Him before it’s to late.

Read what those who belong to Jesus gain!

Rom 8:18

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Rom 8:19

or the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Rom 8:20

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

Rom 8:21

because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 8:22

For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

Rom 8:23

Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Rom 8:24

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

Rom 8:25

But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Rom 8:26

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[fn] with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Rom 8:27

Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Rom 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Rom 8:29

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Rom 8:31

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Rom 8:32

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

Rom 8:33

Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Rom 8:34

Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Rom 8:35

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36

As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[fn]

Rom 8:37

Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Rom 8:38

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,

Rom 8:39

nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hat tip: Oil For Your Lamp

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36 Responses to “B. Franklin Warned About “Keeping Our Republic.””

  1. Black3Actual Says:

    Just an additional, related note: When a friend asked Franklin where the founding fathers had found the ideas they wrote into the Constitution, he replied “From the ancient Scriptures, of course; and by that, I mean the Bible.”

    Liked by 1 person

    • christinewjc Says:

      Good to know! Thanks for sharing that very important information!

      How sad, disgraceful, and utterly contemptible it is to know that for decades now, God has been booed by the Demoncrats at their political conventions. Ugh!!!

      Liked by 1 person

      • Black3Actual Says:

        True, but sadder still is the fact that, although they are not booing yet, the Republicans have also rejected God. Look at their candidate. He openly boasts that he has not asked God for forgiveness because he has never done anything wrong, and yet the GOP base still supports him!? Those of us who know their scriptures know the spirit of the GOP candidate, and it is NOT of God!

        Liked by 1 person

      • christinewjc Says:

        In a former post entitled There Is A Greater Foundation, I shared the error that some evangelicals are assuming (and citing) about Trump being a Christian now through the influence of a false “prophet” – Paula White. It’s ironic that White is a believer in the “prosperity gospel” and I’m sure that Trump liked hearing that!

        If you scroll down at the link, you can click on the links within this portion:

        So…who is Paula White?

        It is no secret that Paula White is a WoF (word of faith) prosperity preacher. Sad to say that any person that rejects the true Gospel of Christ and embraces WoF’s false health & wealth gospel, as she does, is not a regenerate (born again) Christian. In fact, those who have bought into WoF beliefs are caught up in a cult. WoF is not historic orthodox Christianity – not even close! Its teaching on faith is right out of the New Age playbook:
        Faith is a tangible
        force
        . This
        force
        is released through the spoken word, thus name-it-and-claim-it. When we speak words of faith,
        power
        is discharged that will accomplish our desires. Through faith we can have health, wealth, success – anything we want!

        Moreover…

        Alleged laws of the universe can be manipulated independent of God. Does this mean God is subject to the laws He created? According to word-faith theology, yes. (Source)

        The prosperity “gospel.”

        *Sigh*….

        Sounds like something that Trump would embrace because he lives in prosperity and “The Art of the Deal” is his gospel! I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with this businessman’s success, but such success is only temporal. “You can’t take it with you” as we all know, and one day he will stand before Jesus Christ either at the Great White Throne Judgment (if not saved) or the Judgment Seat of Christ (if he is saved and redeemed by the true Gospel of Christ).

        Ms. West concludes her essay:

        And if it’s true that it was Paula White, as Dr. Dobson seems to think, then we can surmise from what we know about this woman, that Donald Trump did not hear the true Gospel of Christ from her. Sadly, what he heard instead was the false prosperity gospel that saves no one.

        Like

  2. GMpilot Says:

    Hmm, seems nothing’s changed while I’ve been away.

    You do know that Franklin was a deist, right? If he were alive today, you’d regard him as just another one of the ‘unchurched’ millions in this country, and a dangerously liberal man, too.

    “Superman’s ideal America” sadly, no longer exists. The decline started gradually, but has now exponentially tanked our nation into a pit of despair!
    Been overdosing on the GOP convention speeches, have you?
    Superman’s ‘ideal America’ is a fiction, just as Superman himself is (although Superman never demanded anyone to worship him!). Superman’s America had no poverty, no racism, and the “mean streets” were hard, but never brutal. Evil was never disguised, and could always be saved from itself. Superman never killed anyone—not even evildoers. In fact, he spent most of his time rescuing people, helping people. He never asked anyone to believe in this or pay him that; he did what he did because it was the right thing to do. And he never declared “I alone can fix it”, unlike what a certain blowhard billionaire recently claimed.

    The prophecy of Scripture both warns us and informs us about what will happen the closer we get to the end times. Those who reject God and His Christ have much to fear.
    No we don’t. We have nothing to fear, and neither should you, since the ‘end times’ you’ve longed for are imminent. I would have thought you’d welcome the end of this wretched world you so despise, especially since you believe you won’t even be here when it all comes to a shuddering halt.

    Tell us: why do you care for the fate of the Republic, when your allegiance is is to an absolute monarch somewhere else?
    Well, you can console B3A on his website and share the despair. As for me, I’ll be trying to correct all that…because that’s what Superman would do.

    Like

    • Black3Actual Says:

      I know that you are an ignorant man, or a deceitful man who is trying to perpetuate a lie about what Franklin — himself — said he believed. By Franklin’s own admission, he could not have been a deist. He believed in a God who takes an active role in human activity, and Who will judge him (Franklin) for the way he (Franklin) lived while in this life. By definition, this precludes Franklin from being a deist.

      Franklin also attended church services regularly (again, by his own admission).

      Why anyone would listen to the likes of a GM Pilot, or any other who — through ignorance or willful malice — lie about what our founders said about themselves is beyond me. But I know this much: those who continue to do so after having been corrected are — by definition — evil!

      Liked by 1 person

      • christinewjc Says:

        Unregenerate man is evil. Jesus even said so in Matthew 7:11 and Luke 11:13.

        Speaking of Luke 11:13, GM is guilty of attributing the “evil” label upon God Himself. Here is an example in Scripture that applies:

        Luk 11:13

        “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

        Luk 11:14

        And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute. So it was, when the demon had gone out, that the mute spoke; and the multitudes marveled.

        Luk 11:15

        But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebub,[fn] the ruler of the demons.”

        GM wants a “sign from God” before he would believe in Him. Jesus Christ dying on the cross for our sins and then rising from the dead wasn’t enough.

        Luke describes this type of attitude, too:

        Luk 11:16

        Others, testing Him, sought from Him a sign from heaven.

        Going even further, we see the intent of those who like to “test Him”:

        Luk 11:17

        But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls.

        Luk 11:18

        “If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out demons by Beelzebub.

        Luk 11:19

        “And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.

        Luk 11:20

        “But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

        Those Scriptures help describe several of GMpilot’s motives for being here and countering what we share about God’s Word and our Savior, Jesus Christ.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Black3Actual Says:

        Ravenous wolves…

        Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      Well…looks who is back. Long time no drivel…GM.

      Your discussion with Joe has been interesting. I always learn a lot from my Christian friend.

      For me, the point is that Ben Franklin cherished God’s Word and abided by it most of his life. Attending church (only) is not always a good indication of someone’s heart-felt beliefs. There are people today who think they are attending “church” when they go to sit and listen to prosperity “gospel” false prophets like Joel Osteen and Paula White.

      GM asked:

      “Tell us: why do you care for the fate of the Republic, when your allegiance is is to an absolute monarch somewhere else?”

      For one thing, God the Father is not a “monarch.” You may ignorantly see Him that way, but it is not what Christians believe.

      Like any other American, I care about the fate of our Republic for the sakes of my young adult children and my almost 9 month old granddaughter. I care about what type of country she will grow up in and the course of our nation today is definitely on the wrong (and terrible) track. I blame 0bummer and the first woman Iranian/Muslim pResident, ValeriEVIL Jarret, who leads him by the nose into the nefarious agenda we are all currently suffering under. We don’t need another evil liar in the White House…female or not…and HilLIARy would be another worst nightmare! I don’t like a lot of things about Trump, but he would be light-years better than “Hillary Rotten Clinton!”

      No matter what, I don’t put my faith in anyone but Jesus Christ.

      Liked by 1 person

      • GMpilot Says:

        GM wants a “sign from God” before he would believe in Him. Jesus Christ dying on the cross for our sins and then rising from the dead wasn’t enough.
        God supposedly gave signs even to people who didn’t ask for them—Exodus is full of such reports. It’s also reported that even Jesus’ followers didn’t recognize him when he returned, but II guess being entombed for a day and a half can do that to people.

        Glad you finally decided to come out and do your own ranting again.

        Like

      • GMpilot Says:

        CJW: For one thing, God the Father is not a “monarch.” You may ignorantly see Him that way, but it is not what Christians believe.
        I see Christians refer to his “divine majesty”. I hear them say he rules the universe, and the affairs of men. I hear them refer to him/his son asKing of Kings, and Lord of Lords. Are they lying, or you? People don’t treat presidents or chairmen or administrators this way—only monarchs.
        So you say your god is not a monarch. Is he a chancellor, then? Or a commissar? A despot? Explain it to me, ma’am!

        Even if you’re right about Obama and Jarret, they will be gone six months from now, and that swaggering, tribble-wearing fool just might be in office instead. Then you’d really better start worrying about…oh wait, then we’ll be on the fast track toward the end times, right? The times you’ve been waiting for all your adult life? You can just hunker down and wait for the boss’s son to take you out of here, is that it?
        I wouldn’t count on that. He’s been standing people up for two thousand years.

        I’ll be trying instead to repair the damage that’s been done, or prevent further damage, depending on the election.

        Like

  3. GMpilot Says:

    “My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan]way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle’s lectures. [Robert Boyle (1627-1691) was a British physicist who endowed the Boyle Lectures for defense of Christianity.] It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist

    [Benjamin Franklin, Autobiography, p.66 as published in The American Tradition in Literature, seventh edition (short), McGraw-Hill, p.180] (emphasis mine)

    <a href=http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/03/ben-franklin-quotes.php

    Yes, Franklin attended church; he always liked to hear a good speaker, and of course, clergymen make a living at speaking. But he never joined a church, contrary to the custom of the time, and he usually kept his Sundays open for reading.

    The defense rests, B3A. You may call me whatever pleases you, but it won’t change the facts.

    Like

    • Black3Actual Says:

      Sorry, dude, but he changed his mind at some point in his life:

      “Here is my creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion.”

      And he also wrote his own epitaph for his tomb stone:

      “The Body of B. Franklin, Printer
      Like the Cover of an old Book
      Its contents torn out,
      And stript of its Lettering and Guilding,
      Lies here, Food for Worms,
      But the Work shall not be wholly lost:
      For it will, as he believ’d,
      Appear once more
      In a new & more perfect Edition,
      Corrected and amended by the Author.”

      No deist I’ve ever encountered believed in the resurrection. That is a Jewish/Christian (and Muslim) belief.

      YOu see, it is not enough to find one point in history and declare it to be the definitive explanation for a man’s entire life. You have to follow the man all the way through, to see how he changed.

      So your defense was just thrashed — by Ben Franklin, himself. 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

    • Black3Actual Says:

      BTW: pg 180 was written much earlier than the time Franklin expressed his belief in the ‘American religion” (a religion to which he, himself, subscribed). So we cannot say that he was still a deist (at least, NOT AS WE UNDERSTAND THE TERM TODAY!!!). A deist does not believe in a god that watches the affairs of man, or judges them in the next life.

      This is a big problem with we ‘modern’ men: we tend to forget what things meant in the past and assign our modern definitions over the words that were once understood to mean entirely different things. This will almost ALWAYS lead to false conclusions.

      So, was Franklin a Christian? No, I don’t think so. But was he an Atheist? NO! He condemned Atheism, as can be witnessed in his thrashing of Paine, his close friend, when Paine turned to Atheism. Nor did Franklin believe in a ‘watchmaker god.’ One does not ask his fellow men to pray to such a god, as Franklin did when he said these words:

      “I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?”

      So, again, GM, FRANKLIN is the one saying you do not understand his personal beliefs — not me. 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

  4. GMpilot Says:

    I concede your points, B3A. I am familiar with the passages you’ve quoted.
    While I can’t know what he meant by the ‘American religion’, I suspect it might be what we now call the ‘civil religion’; a non-specific piousness applied to all situations outside of church. Catholics and Baptists and Presbyterians agreeing on a general concept of ‘god’ and excluding specifics which might lead to conflict. After all, many people who believe in a god don’t believe in YOUR god. The ‘American religion’ is likely just the social oil to eliminate friction among the many religious types.

    Exactly where in my above posts did I say that Franklin was an atheist? That would have been untrue. I know better.
    However, a more in-depth quote of his letter to Pastor Stiles of Yale reveals this:

    “You desire to know something of my religion…Here is my creed. I believe in one God, creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is being good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental principles of all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
    As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is like to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.”

    He wrote that shortly before his death, so I conclude that he did not ‘change his mind’ at any point after his youth. One who doubts the divinity of Christ cannot strictly be called a Christian, as I’m sure you’d agree.

    Ball’s in your court.

    Like

    • Black3Actual Says:

      GM,

      Once again, IF we would bother to read their words (and by “we,” I mean ALL Americans — myself included), the founders will tell us what thy meant. They defined their terms rather thoroughly. In this case, by “American religion,” Franklin was referring to the general sense of a belief in a Creator to whom we hold ourselves morally accountable in the next life. The founders said that, without such a belief in the general populace, there can be no morality, and without morality, no liberty.

      As to the letter you cited, notice that Franklin admits ignorance, yet feels free to comment on whether or not the Scriptures are true. Now, how nice of him to demonstrate that ALL of us — no matter how well esteemed by his countrymen — all are human. Because, by stating clearly that he has not studied the issue, then that he ‘apprehends’ (i.e. “feels”), Franklin tells us he is ignorant about the subject, but has biased opinions which are founded upon nothing more than emotional supposition.

      Now, as someone who HAS studied this issue — admittedly with benefit of more time — I can tell you and Ben that the Scriptures have NOT been changed. In fact, they are the single most reliable book of antiquity available to man. And they also demonstrate to the truth of the resurrection (especially combined with the many sources of confirmation outside the Bible). THAT, by itself, means Christ IS God. Now, if that offends people who do not want to believe, that is of no consequence to those who accept it as fact. it would be as though we who believe the world is round should be made to feel guilty for not extending sympathy to flat-earthers.

      Finally, according to the definition of a Deist (and Deism) in the Noah Webster dictionary of 1828, Franklin may have called himself a deist, but he does not meet the definition of his times. Had he strictly confined himself to the notion that there is a watchmaker god who created Natural Law and then left the world to its fate, then YES! In that case, he would have been correct. HOWEVER, Franklin clearly stated otherwise: that he believed in a life hereafter and that his creator will judge him for his actions (as well as a resurrection — another count against naturalism). now, BY DEFINITION, this is not deism, it is THEISM! So, having already demonstrated that Franklin was not above logical fallacy, I submit that he was also wrong in his application of the term ‘deist’ — at least as he applied it to himself. [CAUTION: Be careful before you deny this, as Franklin was very much a man of his times, and, in his day, deism was a fashion as much as a real belief. So it is very likely that Franklin said he was a deist for the same reason people claim other fashionable labels — for the sake of inclusion, not because it really applies as the definition would prescribe.]

      Liked by 1 person

  5. GMpilot Says:

    I don’t think Franklin was commenting on whether or not the Scriptures are true. He commented on Jesus’ system of morals and his religion. Obviously he thought highly of them, but he also believed that there had been corrupting changes to that system, and that he had ‘some doubts as to his divinity’. He did not say why he had them, so to claim that they were ‘biased opinions which are founded upon nothing more than emotional supposition’ is nothing more than speculation on your part. Which might also be emotionally based.
    We both know that Franklin was a well-read man, and he may have reached those conclusions the same way other people do: by comparing what they read with what they know, and examining whatever questions may arise from it.

    There are not very many extra-biblical sources of confirmation—for example, no major historian within a century of Jesus’ time writes of him—and if they should prove that Jesus is God, then I conclude that Christians worship a very schizophrenic god…which would explain a great deal of both biblical and Christian history.

    IRT Franklin’s deism: I’m just like any Eskimo or Masai meeting a Christian for the first time. If he tells me he is a Christian, I believe him because he says he is, and I don’t know exactly what the term means. I observe his behavior, and whether it corresponds to what he says Christians are supposed to be. If he does good things, I’d figure that being a Christian may be a good thing. If he does evil things, well…
    You say it is very likely that Franklin said he was a deist for the same reason people claim other fashionable labels — for the sake of inclusion. But you also say that he did not meet the definition (as a deist) of his times. Please bear in mind that at the time Webster wrote his definition, Franklin had been dead for almost half a century, and the definition that Ben had used probably wasn’t exactly the same as Webster’s. Even in the early 19th century, social trends changed quickly.

    You’ve challenged a single thing I’ve said about Ben Franklin, but nothing I’ve said about Superman! Interesting.

    Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      Since biblical times there have been corrupting influences regarding Bible Truth and the Person of Jesus Christ. Today, there are dozens! See:

      Syncretism Stew

      To answer your question about non-biblical sources, see:

      CARM.

      Extra Biblical references to Jesus and Christianity.

      Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?

      Like

      • GMpilot Says:

        CJW: Since biblical times there have been corrupting influences regarding Bible Truth and the Person of Jesus Christ.
        Which is exactly what Ben Franklin wrote in his letter to Stiles, and exactly what I was trying to inform B3A. He won’t listen, because I said it; perhaps he’ll listen to you.

        I did not ask about non-biblical sources. I know some exist. I just said there weren’t many of them.
        Bruce’s translation sounds more…impartial, but I couldn’t help note that even Rational Christianity precludes that translation with this tidbit:

        “The common translation of the first passage, Book 18, Ch. 3, part 3, is disputed and is most likely from an altered source.”

        A reading of the original translation indicates it to be Christian propaganda, supposedly written by one who would never ordinarily acknowledge the divinity of Jesus. For 1600 years, however, it was considered canon.
        Josephus was born only about four years after Jesus’ supposed execution, and while still a child, would have heard people talk about him…if it were true. He was, for a time, governor of Galilee, the very province where Jesus lived and taught. Josephus traveled all over the province, and visited the very places where Jesus had been only a generation earlier. He even lived in Cana, where Jesus is said to have performed his first miracle.
        Josephus’ works are twenty volumes large. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and seditious leaders (the latter of which Jesus supposedly was). Nearly 40 chapters of one volume are focused on the life of a single king. He writes of every important event which occurred during the first seven decades of the Christian era…and yet Jesus, the central figure, the MIP to ever come out of that region, merited only a paragraph…and people couldn’t even agree on the contents of that paragraph?!
        Sounds like a legend was being born, not a real person being recorded.

        Like

      • Black3Actual Says:

        CJW: GM’s response to you is why we should hold EVERYTHING he says suspect. He claims Josephus was born some 400 years after Christ Died, HOWEVER, even Wiki knows he lived 37-100 AD (they use CE, but same general thing). This means Josephus was alive and old enough to have had actual discussions with first-hand witnesses.

        Furthermore, GM like to argue that people do not respond to his points, or make spurious replies, yet he has just done the same thing. It does not matter about WHAT Josephus said, it matters that he acknowledged that Christ was a real figure in history, and that his life outside Scripture was generally acknowledged to have been the same as IN the Scriptures. To the intellectually honest, this is called corroborating evidence.

        Furthermore, notice how he picks on one narrow aspect of this outside evidence, and only on that evidence which he believes he can ‘interpret’ to his favor. First, he has NO EVIDENCE that anything has been ‘corrupted,’ so — like Franklin — he admits he is only speculating according to his own biases. Second, he ignores the corroborating evidence which is stronger than the one he chose to dissect. ALL of this is fallacious (and if you know that while you are doing it, deceitful) argumentation.

        There is MUCH outside evidence to testify that the Scriptures are accurate, and that Christ died and rose again. I bet GM does not even know that the global eclipse and a global earth quake were recorded by at least 3 extra-Biblical sources considered — in their times, anyway — to be “scholars.’ The interesting part of these records is they were recorded in distant geographical regions, and all of them agree — pinning Christ’s death to the year 32-33 AD! This is not only powerful support of the Scriptures but — if it were not connected to the claim that Christ IS God — it would be considered definitive proof. But because people do not want to face the ramifications of acknowledging Christ’s true identity, they deny what would otherwise be counted as FACT!

        So, how does one argue with a person who — by their own admission — refuses to acknowledge fact? I mean, by definition, such people are not only irrational, but delusional, which is also defined as insane.

        Liked by 1 person

      • christinewjc Says:

        Joe, you and I both know that no matter what evidence is provided to GM, his purpose here is to ignore it and continue to spew his rhetoric – no matter how irrational, delusional and insane he makes himself appear to be.

        I love how God’s Word is filled with answers regarding such people. Proverbs tells us to “answer a fool according to his folly.”

        Pro 26:5

        Answer a fool according to his folly,
        Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

        Yet, Proverbs also tells us to “not answer a fool according to his folly.”

        Pro 26:4

        Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
        Lest you also be like him.

        This is godly wisdom that informs us that there will come a time when “answering a fool” becomes too ridiculous to continue to do so. That is where you and I are… regarding GM.

        You nailed it when you wrote:

        But because people do not want to face the ramifications of acknowledging Christ’s true identity, they deny what would otherwise be counted as FACT!

        So, how does one argue with a person who — by their own admission — refuses to acknowledge fact?

        Unregenerate man is described in Jeremiah 17:9. Jeremiah 17:10 informs us what happens through the entire lifetime of a man or woman.

        1. The LORD searches the heart.
        2. He tests the mind.
        3. He gives every man according to his ways.
        4. According to the fruit of his doings.

        If a man or woman’s heart rejects the salvation and regeneration of the heart afforded by Christ, then his/her heart remains deceitful and desperately wicked. Some would object to this because they believe that they are “good.” But the truth about the evil in man is revealed by Christ Himself! That link is only a portion of examples where Christ agrees with the fact that “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?!

        Jer 17:9

        “The heart is deceitful above all things,
        And desperately wicked;
        Who can know it?

        Jer 17:10

        I, the LORD, search the heart,
        I test the mind,
        Even to give every man according to his ways,
        According to the fruit of his doings.

        The Gospel of Christ solves our most deep and desperate need. Jesus said that we must be “born again” of the spirit. There is no other way! Christ IS THE WAY!

        Every person’s heart is searched by the LORD. Every person’s mind is tested. Every man – according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doing – will result in reconciliation with God or separation from Him forever in eternity.

        What we discuss here is vital! Though many choose to mock it, there will be some, perhaps a remnant, who are will heed what is shared and as Jude informs us:

        Jde 1:23

        but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[fn] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

        Jude 1:3-1:16 and 1:17-19 describes those with “deceitful and desperately wicked hearts.” It’s not a pretty picture!

        However, the following beautiful verses from Jude instruct us and inform us of what believers in Jesus Christ has in store for us and how we can endure what evildoers throw at us in this fallen world:

        Jde 1:1

        Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
        To those who are called, sanctified[fn] by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

        Jde 1:2

        Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

        Jde 1:3

        Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

        Jde 1:20

        But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

        Jde 1:21

        keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

        Jde 1:22

        And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[fn]

        Jde 1:23

        but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[fn] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

        Jde 1:24

        Now to Him who is able to keep you[fn] from stumbling,
        And to present you faultless
        Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

        Jde 1:25

        To God our Savior,[fn]
        Who alone is wise,[fn]
        Be glory and majesty,
        Dominion and power,[fn]
        Both now and forever.
        Amen.

        NKJV Footnotes

        (1:1)

        NU-Text reads beloved.

        (1:4)

        NU-Text omits God.

        (1:12)

        NU-Text and M-Text read along.

        (1:22)

        NU-Text reads who are doubting (or making distinctions).

        (1:23)

        NU-Text adds and on some have mercy with fear and omits with fear in first clause.

        (1:24)

        M-Text reads them.

        (1:25)

        NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.

        (1:25)

        NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.

        (1:25)

        NU-Text adds Before all time.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Black3Actual Says:

        WJC,

        Yep 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

      • christinewjc Says:

        Decided that this conversation deserved a post all its own!

        Answering Folly

        Liked by 1 person

  6. GMpilot Says:

    Ravenous wolves…
    …eat timorous sheep.

    Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      Speaking of sheep and ravenous wolves…

      Mat 7:13

      “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

      Mat 7:14

      “Because[fn] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

      Mat 7:15

      “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

      Like

      • GMpilot Says:

        I was just finishing up B3A’s comment, since he couldn’t seem to do it himself. Wolves do eat sheep, don’t they?

        Like

  7. Answering Folly | Talk Wisdom Says:

    […] a previous post, my friend Joe from Oil For Your Lamp attempted to inform a commenter with the screen name of […]

    Like

  8. GMpilot Says:

    *sigh* I suppose now I’ll be accused of derailing your thread. It started off with discussion of Ben Franklin’s words, and quickly veered off into Superman and other legendary persons. I acknowledge some responsibility for that, but I didn’t take it that far!

    However:

    B3A: …GM like to argue that people do not respond to his points, or make spurious replies, yet he has just done the same thing. It does not matter about WHAT Josephus said, it matters that he acknowledged that Christ was a real figure in history, and that his life outside Scripture was generally acknowledged to have been the same as IN the Scriptures.
    Of course it matters WHAT Josephus said! If not, why did you cite him, then?
    According to the Bruce translation, Jesus was a real person who ‘performed surprising works’ and was a ‘teacher of men’. The bible records all of those surprising works, but Josephus records not even one. The eclipse, the earthquake, and especially the walking dead at the crucifixion event would not have escaped people’s notice, yet Josephus is silent on the matter. The implication is that Jesus was at best only a regional figure, and a minor one at that.

    B3A, I have told our hostess many times that I acknowledge Jesus to have been a real person. Like Ben Franklin said, it’s his divinity I’m skeptical about.

    A ‘global earth quake’ like the one you mention is a tall order indeed. Global? As in, people experienced it in China and Germany and Central America and Alaska and even Rome itself on that one day? I’d really like to read that; send me the link! There are those who conclude there was a significant (8.2) earthquake in Judea at the time of the execution of Jesus. But that’s not of ‘global’ scale.
    It’s confirmed that there was a lunar eclipse on the evening of the execution. I’m prepared to say that it could not have been global either, however, simply because it was daytime on the other side of the world and because the arc of the earth limits the viewing areas of any eclipse. I’ll look further into it.
    But even if they were endowed with being signs from the gods in the distant past, earthquakes and eclipses are entirely natural phenomena, and people regard them as such.
    However, if you can provide some evidence for the walking, talking dead men reported in Jerusalem that day, you’ll really have something to proclaim as FACT! Got any?

    Finally…I did say Josephus was born about four years after Jesus’ death. Go back to that post again, and read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

    Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      FYI to GM:

      I noticed this morning that three copies of this particular comment ended up in my spam box. That was the cause for delay in posting it here.

      Like

      • GMpilot Says:

        Acknowledged. Thank you.

        Like

      • christinewjc Says:

        Your link within your comment is obviously a skeptics site. Looks like you found a new home!

        People who wish to remain skeptics will do so willingly, adamantly, and purposely. Why? Because they are not interested in anything else but their own preconceived notions and hardened viewpoint. This is likely just one reason why Joe sees no purpose in wasting his time communicating the truth of the Bible with you.

        Like

      • GMpilot Says:

        Your link within your comment is obviously a skeptics site. Looks like you found a new home!
        Oh, you can use a Christian site, but I can’t use a skeptic site? What term do they call that, again?
        People who wish to remain skeptics will do so willingly, adamantly, and purposely. Why? Because they are not interested in anything else but their own preconceived notions and hardened viewpoint.
        But you don’t have any preconceived notions and hardened viewpoint. Nor do you have any ‘wish’ to remain a Christian willingly, adamantly, and purposely. Uh huh. You’re upset that I hold my viewpoint as adamantly as you do yours, that’s all.
        This is likely just one reason why Joe sees no purpose in wasting his time communicating the truth of the Bible with you.
        I’m sure I’m not the first disbeliever B3A has ever encountered, nor do I care why he no longer wishes to post to me. He says he won’t, so I’ll take him at his word. Since the two of you are BFFs now, maybe he’ll tell you why.

        Like

    • Black3Actual Says:

      GM,

      Stop crying like a baby when people do to you what you do to them. Yes, I am ignoring you — because talking to you is like talking to a 2 y/o All you care about is what YOU want to hear. facts and truth are irrelevant to you, so trying to reason with you is like giving medicine to the dead.

      I have better things to do than waste my time in such ways.

      Like

      • GMpilot Says:

        You must have mistaken me for some other Trump.
        But if you wish to ignore me, I shall be glad to return the favor, starting now.

        Like

      • Black3Actual Says:

        Nope, not confused at all. I am PERFECTLY clear as to what I am dealing with in you. If anything, YOU are the one who is confused 🙂

        Like

      • GMpilot Says:

        …and here you are, breaking your word already.
        Just couldn’t resist the temptation to reply one last time, could you? No wonder you need a Celestial Someone to tell you how to behave!

        Like

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