Beware When Today’s Media Calls Someone, “America’s Pastor.”

H/T for graphic:  missionventureministries

When Bible truths are being distorted, it is important for Christian believers to speak up and point out such errors.  Recently, I caught a segment on the Fox and Friends show on The Fox News Channel where Rick Warren appeared with three co-authors of a new book called, “The Daniel Plan.”  I will get to what that “plan” is all about in a moment.

First, I must share that I had noticed years ago that Pastor Warren’s teachings were leading towards error.   It all began when I (as well as two other Bible study leaders) noticed that Rick Warren’s prayer of salvation was missing something very crucial!   As the years went on, I noticed his wishy-washy attitude towards the CA Proposition 8 (marriage is the union of one man and one woman) debate, and his non-biblical stance on other issues, so I wrote about them.  IMHO, Warren REALLY went off the deep end, once again, by embracing Chrislam (a form of melding Christianity with Islam).

I must start off by saying that I was deeply saddened to learn of the Warren’s son (who battled depression most of his life) committing suicide last year.  In fact, his son’s suicide was so heartbreaking (as any loss of a child would be to his/her parents!!!) that Warren stated on the Fox and Friends show that he couldn’t sleep for six months and gained a lot of weight.  This was one of the reasons he and his co-authors wrote the new diet book, “The Daniel Plan.”

Well, I’ve got some bad news about that book and it’s co-authors.

Today, in my email inbox I got a notification about a post from a blog I follow called Muddy Streams. The link at the end of the post explains, in great detail, why these four men and their book should be avoided by Bible-based Christian followers of Jesus Christ.

Here is a copy of the post, in its entirety:

Question: Why are you and other “discernment” writers so critical of Rick Warren and his new Daniel Plan?

Question : Why are you and other “discernment” writers so critical of Rick Warren and his new Daniel Plan? What difference does it make that Rick Warren turns to some of the best secular doctors in the nation to help the church with its battle over obesity, physical fitness, and mental health? After all, Christians don’t have to ensure that their cars are repaired only by Christian mechanics, and their toilets unstopped only by Christian plumbers. If you’ve got a problem with your physical body, isn’t it far more important to have the very best doctor’s advice, regardless of their religious background?

Response:  As long as one’s mechanic or plumber isn’t incorporating un-biblical spiritual content in his service to a believer, his religious background shouldn’t be a problem. However, that is not the case with the eminent doctors that Rick Warren has selected to minister to his congregation and those hundreds of thousands who follow his ministry. All three of the medical doctors are practitioners of various forms of Eastern mystical meditation and occultism, which they promote in their well-being programs of body, mind, and spirit. No doubt their medical science education gives them valuable insights into the workings of their patients’ bodies, but what of mind and spirit? The mind is not the brain; it’s part of man’s nonphysical makeup. There is no objective science of mind. There is only the metaphysical kind. There is no objective science of the spirit. There are no scientific instruments for evaluating a person’s spirit. It’s purely a subjective religious matter.

Furthermore, your question reflects the religious pragmatism (“whatever works”) that leads many believers to abandon biblical authority, compromise their faith, supplant the gospel, and even endanger their very lives. The journey of departing from the Truth may not begin with such stark choices, but often ends with tragic spiritual consequences. “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump” (Gal:5:9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.).

In reality, however, your question presents a textbook-perfect “straw man” argument–defined as “creating the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition…without ever having actually refuted the original position.” In this case, you are comparing the evaluation and repair of a physical object, such as an automobile or toilet, to the diagnosis and prescription for human beings, with regard to their physical as well as mental and spiritual health. As followers of Christ, we should indeed be convinced (and convicted) of our need to care for our physical bodies, all the while recognizing that they are temples of the Spirit of God (1 Cor:3:  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?). As Paul explained to Timothy, “Bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come” (1 Tm 4:8). Attempting to care for our bodies in ways that are antithetical  to God’s Word is sinning against our Creator.

An additional concern over Rick Warren’s latest church marketing campaign has nothing to do with helping believers improve their level of physical fitness (which is understandably connected to emotional health as well). Rather, it is Warren’s boastful claim that The Daniel Plan is nothing short of “God’s Prescription for Your Health,” a statement that must be thoroughly evaluated and challenged.

To begin with, the biblical Daniel wasn’t in need of a diet or program to help him get into top physical shape. To attempt to use him as a spiritual model to motivate Christians to healthy living demonstrates either an ignorance of the Scriptures or a dishonest marketing ploy.

The fact that the three doctors chosen by Warren to implement his church-wide regimen are widely recognized in their field of medical expertise is not in question. What every participant must ask is how the doctors’ personal religious worldviews shape their understanding of the human mind, body, and spirit–and whether or not these extra-biblical worldviews will infect the so-called Daniel Plan’s “prescription” with spiritually dangerous ideas and practices.

Dr. Mehmet Oz was born to first-generation Muslim parents in Cleveland, Ohio. His father’s side of the family embraces Sharia law. Dr. Oz claims to be influenced by Sufism (“whirling dervishes”), a mystical Islamic contemplative practice in which the “adept” spins himself into an altered state of consciousness in order to commune with Allah. Through the influence of his Protestant wife, he adopted some of the teachings of Emmanuel Swedenborg, the founder of a pseudo-Christian cult that denies the Trinity, believes the Last Judgment is past, and teaches that “all who do good from the truth of their own religion” will be accepted into heaven, since “doing good conjoins oneself to God” (http://www.religiousherald.org/index. php?option=com_content&task=view&id=650&Itemid=110). [Note:  Apologies to readers because the link no longer works.  I tried to do a search for the quote but was unable to find it.]

Oz believes hypnosis can and should be used to address emotional and addictive behaviors. One of his secrets to maintaining a calm presence, says Oz, is practicing Transcendental Meditation, of which he is a national spokesperson: “When I meditate, I go to that place where truth lives,” he said. “I can see what reality really is, and it is so much easier to form good relationships.” Oz’s wife, Lisa, is a Reiki Master, a very occult form of deep massage. He praised Reiki as his “favorite treatment that could change the future of medicine forever.” He explained, “It broadens dramatically the spectrum of where we might be able to go in our bodies, and this is the area of energy medicine.” Concluding one episode of his popular TV program, Oz ordered millions of viewers: “Try Reiki!”

Dr. Daniel Amen, another of Rick Warren’s “Daniel Plan” doctors, is founder of the famous Amen Clinic, which purports to diagnose brain-behavior disorders and prescribe dietary, chemical, and meditative treatments. Licensed in both child and adult psychiatry, Amen is an ADHD specialist who practices non-medical treatments, including hypnosis, meditation, relaxation, and eye-movement desensitization. Dr. Amen recommends that everyone should strive to meditate daily for 12 minutes and recommends “an active form of yoga meditation called Kriya Kirtan.” He explains that this Kundalini-based Hindu practice “is based on the five primal sounds: saa , taa , naa , maa , and aa .” (An interesting choice and order of syllables for Christians to “contemplate:” Sa ta na …).

In his bestselling book, Making a Good Brain Great , Amen instructs readers to “write a poem or love letter to your brain” (p. 240). He is also an enthusiastic activist for tantric sex, which is a Hindu practice that incorporates mysticism during intercourse to attain a higher state of pleasure–and divine consciousness. In reality, this ritual behavior invites demons into the marriage bed.

Dr. Mark Hyman is the third member of Rick Warren’s “Daniel Plan” triumvirate. He is the author of: UltraCalm: A Six-Step Plan to Reduce Stress and Eliminate Anxiety . The book presents his “simple, powerful method for generating a peaceful and harmonious state in the body-mind.” Hyman’s “prescription” to achieve this level of “natural healing intelligence” is not even camouflaged in pseudo-scientific language but expressed in outright New Age terminology. His “audio learning program” presents “breathing meditations and visualization exercises for feeling calm, confident, and in good spirits.” (Can you say “contemplative self-hypnosis and self-affirmation”?) On this, he certainly agrees with Dr. Oz and Dr. Amen: that “mind-body medicine…is now the most important medical frontier.” Dr. Hyman’s books are quite popular throughout the New Age and metaphysical community. Our great concern, however, is that they will be featured and promoted wherever The Daniel Plan is taught.

Rick Warren, as a shepherd of thousands of sheep and one who has been called “America’s pastor,” is responsible to the Lord for what he is feeding them. Tragically, he has brought in hirelings (and worse) who will lead his sheep into meditative techniques that are “doctrines of devils” and will open them to direct communication with “seducing spirits” (1 Tm 4:1).

I know what it is like to be subjected to a false religion’s mind-body metaphysical and meditative techniques. I once attended a yoga session with two non-Christians. The instructor actually made the claim that our yoga group was “inviting in the spirits” as she put her hands together in a traditional Christian prayer sign. Well, that is when I stopped participating. I opened my eyes and sat there until the session was over. I was NOT going to participate in something that I did not believe in, and I was certainly not going to follow her “command” to “invite the spirits” into my mind, body or soul!

I know. Many people would think this is harmless. Well, I don’t think so! ANYTHING that claims to “invite the spirits in” when you don’t know what kind or type of spirits they are referring to, is trouble.

The Bible instructs us:

1Jo 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Read more about testing the spirits:

Blue Letter Bible search criteria: the spirits.

Dear readers…this isn’t an insignificant  matter!!!

Unfortunately, Rick Warren and his band of co-authors have fallen towards deceiving spirits.  Let this be a warning to all who read this post!

1Ti 4:1

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,*

Hat tips to all links

*
1Ti 4:2
speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

1Ti 4:3
forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

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28 Responses to “Beware When Today’s Media Calls Someone, “America’s Pastor.””

  1. GMpilot Says:

    Oh well: as you used to say, “Christians aren’t perfect—just forgiven”. Except by other Christians.
    Considering how you used to rave about Rick Warren, it’s amusing to see how you’ve turned on him since. You even recommended his book “The Purpose-Driven Life” to me, and I actually read it! My one regret is that I’ll never get those hours back; it was nothing more than a glorified self-help book that told the readers that they couldn’t help themselves—only god could do that!

    Dr. Amen’s non-medical treatments are well-described, but are they effective? Have these techniques EVER worked? If they do, a god is not necessary, and if they don’t, a god will not improve them.
    Chanting and meditation is an integral part of religious ceremonies from Japan to Britain, that I know of, and probably many more places. Some just repeat one word over and over into infinity, while others use short phrases in ancient languages. You’d probably know something about that (Why would god want us to speak to/about him only in Latin?). I think they’re all rather silly; a god who knows your every word and thought shouldn’t need horns and cymbals, drums and shouts to get its attention.

    Another interesting choice of syllables for Christians to contemplate is the order “aa…na…taa…” which in Japanese translates simply as “you”. Or perhaps “saa…maa…” which is an honorific in Japan, used to address or refer to very important persons. But of course if you want to find satan behind every tree, you will. It must be something in the muddy stream you drank from.

    Decades ago, I heard Billy Graham also referred to as “America’s Pastor”, and it was ridiculous then too. No one would have ever said Dr. So-and-So was “America’s Rabbi”, yet there are millions in this country who have one. “How about “America’s Priest”? See how that sounds?
    Also, it’s not enough simply to warn other people about someone who’s gone off the spiritual rails: Matthew 18 has instructions on the other, more important thing the brethren must do. Are you doing it? Since Warren is ‘a shepherd of thousands of sheep’, don’t you think you ought to?
    So I agree with you: beware when the media (not just today’s media) calls someone “America’s Pastor”. I certainly didn’t vote for him.

    Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      It often takes time to discover whether or not a preacher, pastor, or any person who calls themselves a Christian genuinely believe and follow the gospel of Jesus Christ and adhere to biblical teachings. In Warren’s case, I have found him lacking in both areas.

      Like

  2. Cry and Howl Says:

    Your answer is right on Christine. Sometimes it takes a while to see the “true colors” of a person. I don’t get the point of Mr. Pilot’s exhortation, except maybe a demonstration of his intellectual prowess. I hope you got the gist of his message.
    Again, at times people can be deceiving / or … they “morph” into something entirely different from what they originally portrayed themselves to be. This is why it’s very important for Christians to study the Word IN IT’S CONTEXT, and as they grow spiritually they’ll “have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

    Like

  3. christinewjc Says:

    Yes Steve. It is very obvious to us but people like GMpilot adhere to relativism and/or any other type of “ism” in order to dispel the reality of absolute truth. No matter what people want to think, there can only be one absolute truth.

    Jesus meant what he said – the fact that, “He is the way, the truth, and the life.” Jesus also told us that God’s Word is truth when he stated directly to the Father, “Your Word is truth.”

    Relativists hate to hear that because it exposes that they have, “exchanged the truth for a lie.”

    Steve, I saw another kind of “coexist” bumper sticker the other day. It had the usual symbols displayed, but it spelled out the word “repent” in between each symbol. I was trying to discern the meaning of the sticker. My husband quipped, ” it’s probably an atheist telling all those religions to repent!” But, to whom should they repent? If my hubby is correct in his interpretation of the bumper sticker, doesn’t it expose the hypocrisy of an atheist?

    On the other hand, if it was a Christian message, the truth of all who adhere to those religions need to repent! Therefore, the truth of Jesus’ words comes shining through!

    Like

  4. gmpilot Says:

    CJW: “It is very obvious to us but people like GMpilot adhere to relativism and/or any other type of “ism” in order to dispel the reality of absolute truth. No matter what people want to think, there can only be one absolute truth.”

    So your “absolutism” trumps every other kind of -ism, is that what you’re saying? How does that make your “-ism” better than anyone else’s?

    Like

  5. christinewjc Says:

    It’s not my “ism.” Absolute truth is revealed by God via His written Word, the Bible, and His Living Word – Jesus Christ.

    You made a poor attempt to lump absolute truth in with the many “isms” of failed, manmade ideology.

    Your atheism doesn’t make God’s Word untrue. Your continual attempts to bash God just makes you look so absolutely foolish.

    Like

  6. gmpilot Says:

    You say that it’s ‘absolute truth’, but that’s not absolutism. Yeah, right.
    Atheism does not exist to ‘make God’s Word untrue’; only that the atheist does not believe that it is true.
    Many of those who claim that it is true do pretty well demonstrating that they don’t believe it either, by their behavior. After all, who’s the one here complaining about Rick Warren?

    Like

  7. christinewjc Says:

    Yes. An atheist chooses to believe that God’s Word is not truth. However, he/she can’t prove it. A Christian can prove it by the many prophecies in the Old Testament that have been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant.

    Your second paragraph is a non sequitur.

    Pointing out that Rick Warren is in error when it comes to the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a complaint – it’s a fact. And such a fact is important enough that it needs to be exposed so that others don’t fall prey to his errors, heresies and apostasy.

    Like

  8. gmpilot Says:

    Actually, atheists say that any god’s word—not just yours–is not truth. Prophecy is not proof. I once demonstrated that Jules Verne was at least as good a prophet as, say, Ezekiel. You say “Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant”, but you say that only because I don’t believe in your god.

    I pointed out to you that the Word you claim to live by also tell you to point out the errors not only to others, but to the errant proclaimist himself. I asked if you’d done that, and suddenly you pile on me for daring to raise the question. If you don’t want others to fall prey to his supposed heresy, you have to tell him, not just everyone else. There’s nothing to stop you from writing an “open letter to Rick Warren” or even one directly to him, with a laundry list of the things you say he got wrong. You’ve certainly done it here often enough!

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  9. christinewjc Says:

    What makes you think that someone with the celebrity prowess that Rick Warren has would ever listen to anything that I would have to say? Even if I did present a biblically accurate presentation of Warren’s errors, he apparently believes in his errors enough to teach them to a huge congregation. How would a little ‘ole blogger like me get his attention when the world around him clamors for more of his errant doctrine and ideology?

    I could cite dozens of Bible verses on this issue. However, two in particular come to mind:

    2Ti 4:3

    For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

    2Ti 4:4

    They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

    Like

  10. gmpilot Says:

    The bible verses I cited are equally valid. Here they are again:

    Matt 18: 15~17

    Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

    But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

    And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

    ”What makes you think that someone with the celebrity prowess that Rick Warren has would ever listen to anything that I would have to say?”

    In other words, you’re a “cafeteria Christian”—you pick the verses you like and ignore the rest. Well, Pharaoh was the ruler of the most powerful nation in the region, but that didn’t stop Moses from confronting him, now did it? And you don’t even need to travel to Lake Forest! See, you’re bitching to all and sundry about Warren, except to the one person you should tell—Warren. Your bible says so.
    What’s the point of having a religion if you’re not going to follow its moral code in the absolute?

    Like

  11. christinewjc Says:

    What makes you think that someone (or, most likely, many people) haven’t already confronted Warren?

    Please watch your language. No need to use terms that are offensive to most people.

    My goal here at this blog is to warn others about Warren. IMHO, that will do more good than attempting to confront Warren indirectly, which would probably be of no avail. Why do I think that way? Because individuals in leadership positions often think very highly of themselves and refuse to hear what the “little people” have to say. They think they know better.

    A pastor who tells his congregation to check his sermons for biblical accuracy shows how he fears the Lord God (meaning, showing reverence) and WANTS to be accurate when “rightly dividing the word of truth.”

    Jesus warned us of individuals who would ignore God’s command to “rightly divide the word of truth.”

    Mat 24:24

    For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    Mat 24:25

    See, I have told you ahead of time.

    Therefore, we are to be on guard for false messiahs and prophets. How do we discern between the truth vs. error and falsehoods? God’s Word.

    Hbr 4:12

    For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    1Th 2:4

    On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts.

    2Ti 2:15

    Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

    [Using NIV Bible version here]

    2 Timothy continues:

    2Ti 2:16

    Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.

    2Ti 2:17

    Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

    2Ti 2:18

    who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

    2Ti 2:19

    Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

    *******

    In those verses, we learn several important lessons.

    1. Those who engage in godless chatter will become more and more ungodly.

    2. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. [Note: Warren pastors a huge church].

    3. The verse mentions two individuals who have “departed from the truth.”

    4. Their particular error was that they were saying that the resurrection (of the dead) has already taken place. This error is destroying the faith of SOME. [Note: Not all will be fooled by the false prophets of our day. In fact, I have read on several blogs comments of people who used to attend Warren’s church, but left because of his errors – including the “chrislam” heresy.]

    Ultimately, “The Lord knows those who are his.” God isn’t fooled by such individuals who would “depart from the faith.” The last verse above tells us that all “who confess the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.” Therefore, we have a good indication of those who can be deemed as fake believers/false prophets and teachers – they don’t turn away from wickedness. And that can include either their public or secret lives.

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  12. gmpilot Says:

    I have not read of anyone else complaining about Warren’s supposed heresies, and I don’t really care. I have read of your complaints about Warren’s supposed heresies, and I wondered if YOU have told him, as you’re supposed to do. It’s possible that many people have confronted him—but what if they haven’t? If you’re so sure you have the Truth™, you should tell him…and you are sure, aren’t you?

    You have used MUCH harsher language on your previous blog, and we both know it. I’ll respect your wishes, but the moment you stop being nice here, I will too.

    Your ‘goal’ is to eliminate a supposed heretical teaching. You quoted it yourself: “Their teaching will spread like gangrene.” When a doctor treats an infection, does he treat the symptoms, or does he go straight to the source of the illness? Does an exterminator simply kill the ants he sees, or does he try to find the nest? You know this, yet you come up with mealy-mouthed excuses for why you can’t do that. What’s wrong with an “open letter”? You say you’ve read of others who have broken with Warren’s church; it might be a good idea to add your voice to theirs. Put your arguments in print. Send it to all your blog buddies. If they agree, they’ll publish it too and sooner or later Warren will hear of it. Maybe it won’t change his mind…but god is said to be in the miracle business.

    Like

  13. christinewjc Says:

    GM wrote: “I have not read of anyone else complaining about Warren’s supposed heresies, and I don’t really care.”

    1. You haven’t done any research if “you have not read of anyone else complaining about Warren’s supposed heresies.”

    2. You also wrote, “and I don’t really care.”

    In that case, there is no need for further discussion!

    Like

  14. gmpilot Says:

    When I disagree with you, you can’t stand it.
    When I agree with you (as I did here), you can’t stand it.
    You’re right—there is no need for further discussion!

    Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      Earth to GM…just where in this dialogue did you actually agree with me?

      You wrote that “you don’t care.” Well, I do! I care about Christians who would be drawn away from The Way (which is what Christian faith was originally called in the book of Acts) into error. Correction: If you DO CARE, then I think that you should take Steve’s advice.

      Like

  15. Cry and Howl Says:

    Hey Christine! I see you and Mr. Pilot are having a lively dialogue and I certainly don’t want to interrupt. However, I find it interesting Mr. Pilot uses the scriptures to back up his points which is not the wisest thing to do being such a man as he claims.
    He has many times professed to not believe in God, the scriptures, etc. So what do the scriptures say of such an one who uses the scriptures yet refuse to obey them?
    Hint: Psalm 50:16-17, and one could go to the end of the Psalm.
    When people like Warren and others in leadership who obviously know the truth, turn from that truth, it’s not anyone’s place to tell them anything. Yeah, I know Ezekiel 18 and 33 but I’m not sure they apply here (remember, text and context are the keys to the scriptures) They already know, so, why cast pearls before swine? Now, I’m not saying that someone shouldn’t warn him … if Mr. Pilot has such a burden, and he seems to have at least a knowledge of the scriptures in the letter, let him. Please forgive me GM, I’m not trying to be offensive, just stating the obvious.

    Like

    • christinewjc Says:

      Excellent points Steve!

      When a pastor “already knows” the truth, yet turns away from it (and drags many thousands away right along with him), there is a special warning written in the Scriptures about doing just that. I need to do a search.

      For now, this verse explains how there are those will hear us because we are of God, but those not of God does not hear us.

      1Jo 4:6

      We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

      Update: Found the verse I was thinking about:

      Jam 4:17

      Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

      Matthew Henry’s commentary helps explain:

      V. We are taught, in the whole of our conduct, to act up to our own convictions, and, whether we have to do with God or men, to see that we never go contrary to our own knowledge (v. 17): To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin; it is aggravated sin; it is sinning with a witness; and it is to have the worst witness against his own conscience. Observe, 1. This stands immediately connected with the plain lesson of saying, If the Lord will, we shall do this or that; they might be ready to say, “This is a very obvious thing; who knows not that we all depend upon almighty God for life, and breath, and all things?’ Remember then, if you do know this, whenever you act unsuitably to such a dependence, that to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin, the greater sin. 2. Omissions are sins which will come into judgment, as well as commissions. He that does not the good he knows should be done, as well as he who does the evil he knows should not be done, will be condemned. Let us therefore take care that conscience be rightly informed, and then that it be faithfully and constantly obeyed; for, if our own hearts condemn us not, then have we confidence towards God; but if we say, We see, and do not act suitably to our sight, then our sin remaineth, Jn. 9:41.

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  16. gmpilot Says:

    (This may not have gotten through, as it was originally posted through another (public) computer. So just in case, here it is again.)

    GM to Christine:
    It was at the very end of my first reply where I agreed with you. Were you so blinded by righteous indignation that you didn’t see it? Your header said “someone” and only later did you identify Rick Warren as that someone.
    You are a Christian. So is Warren (by most standards, if not yours). So if you both believe in and follow the Christian bible, and he is doing something contrary to its teachings and you know it, doesn’t that mean you have an obligation to correct him? In the old days kings would go to war over this stuff, but you can’t even be bothered to write him an e-mail?? ESPECIALLY if he ‘drags many thousands away right along with him’?

    Besides, I thought we were done here! If you want to continue, I’m game, but only ‘if’.

    I’d be glad to address Mr.Howl’s points once he acknowledges me. I don’t know how they do it in Texas, but where I come from people address each other directly. This triangulation business is annoying and unnecessary.

    Like

  17. christinewjc Says:

    Yes, GM. I received a notification in my email inbox that your post didn’t go through. It read: “This message has not been downloaded from the server.” Your second attempt did go through.

    I went back and read your first comment. Yes, you did agree with the title of my post. However, you wrote about other content and once again, chastised me for encouraging you to read Warren’s book. Back then, I wasn’t aware of his heresy. I didn’t come to the same conclusion that you did regarding the book, but I always thought that it was written for people who are (were) already born again in Christ. When I did the Bible study at my house and viewed Warren’s introductory video, an alarm bell went off when he skipped the part about the need to REPENT of one’s sins before asking Christ into one’s heart. That is a BIG omission, and it started me down the path towards other problems with Warren’s theology.

    If I had to write letters to every person who professes Christ in public, yet spreads errors because of their deliberate falling away from the truth of the Bible, I’d be busy for months…maybe even years! Do you think someone like Benny Hinn, for example, would even bother to listen? He’s making too much money off the unfortunate gullibility of his “followers.” Now, if those followers wised up and studied the Bible for themselves, then they wouldn’t fall into the trap.

    Christians are given gifts by the Holy Spirit to be utilized within their realm of influence and mine just happens to be through my church, various Bible studies I’ve attended and led, individual evangelism, and sharing God’s Word via this blog.

    We are warned in Scripture that “falling away” from the truth will happen – especially within the ranks of those who claim to be followers of Christ.. It’s sad, but true.

    Two examples:

    Act 20:28

    Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, [fn] which he bought with his own blood. [fn]

    Act 20:29

    I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

    Act 20:30

    Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

    Act 20:31

    So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

    Act 20:32

    “Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

    [Notice that these verses specifically warned the apostles and believers. There was no attempt to correct the false prophet.]

    *******

    2Ti 4:1

    In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:

    2Ti 4:2

    Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

    2Ti 4:3

    For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

    2Ti 4:4

    They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

    2Ti 4:5

    But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

    [Here, Paul does the same thing – warns about those “who will not put up with sound doctrine.” He also reveals why – because such false teachers will say, “what their itching ears want to hear” rather than the truth.]

    Like

  18. gmpilot Says:

    “I went back and read your first comment. Yes, you did agree with the title of my post.”
    Thank you.

    “However, you wrote about other content and once again, chastised me for encouraging you to read Warren’s book.”
    If I had read “TPDL” and been convinced, and then you heard about Warren’s alleged false teachings, what would you have said to me then? “Better that you should have stayed an unbeliever than follow a false doctrine”, or some such thing?
    The fact remains that I did read it, because I wanted to give your views a fair hearing. You, OTOH, have never extended the same courtesy to me. You have misinterpreted texts that I have read and know, and not only have you not read them, you refuse to read them, because you have the Truth™–at least, that’s what you tell me. Your chastisement was earned.

    Back then, I wasn’t aware of his heresy.”
    So it IS possible to deceive the elect, then? Or is it that you are not part of that elect?

    ”If I had to write letters to every person who professes Christ in public, yet spreads errors because of their deliberate falling away from the truth of the Bible, I’d be busy for months…maybe even years!”
    You don’t have to go through all of them, just the important ones. Just because Benny the Hinn may not heed you is no reason not to tell him. As I understand it, ol’ Benny is fringe even by Christian standards and most folks barely accept him. So what? Who among you can say exactly who is a ‘cancer on the body of Christ’ (as Jimmy Swaggart once said) and who isn’t? Supposedly the Big Guy determines that, but there always seems to be someone ready and eager to do that job for him.

    ”…if those followers wised up and studied the Bible for themselves, then they wouldn’t fall into the trap.”
    That’s what I did, but most bible believers are content to hear only what they’re told what’s in it. Why else would there be a need for a special class of interpreters to tell people what it says?

    [quoting 2Tim 4:3]“Here, Paul does the same thing – warns about those “who will not put up with sound doctrine.” He also reveals why – because such false teachers will say, “what their itching ears want to hear” rather than the truth.”
    And two of those itchy ears were yours, for a time. Now they’re not, and you don’t wish to confront the one who told you wrong. Warning others away helps, but perhaps you should still go back to the hive with a smoke pot. As I said, there’s no point in professing a religion if you’re not going to follow its moral code absolutely.

    Like

  19. christinewjc Says:

    GM wrote: “As I said, there’s no point in professing a religion if you’re not going to follow its moral code absolutely.”

    Ah…but can man follow any moral code absolutely? The answer is: no. That is why Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Repentance and faith in Him is the gospel, GM; not “follow[ing] its moral code absolutely.” That is a task that only one God-Man ever achieved. Because of what He accomplished, believers are reconciled back unto God. We are not perfect – just forgiven.

    I’ll take it up a notch, though. Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” That’s a tall order, but one that Christians SHOULD take seriously. The problem is, we often fail. Recall “The Good Test”?

    That is why all of us are in need of the Savior, Jesus Christ.

    Like

  20. gmpilot Says:

    CJW: “Because of what [Jesus] accomplished, believers are reconciled back unto God. We are not perfect – just forgiven.”
    One assumes that Rick Warren is as forgiven as you are. I’ve heard no indication that he’s stopped being a believer.

    ”I’ll take it up a notch, though. Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” That’s a tall order, but one that Christians SHOULD take seriously.”
    I agree, so why aren’t you doing it? This whole thread is about one Christian (you) claiming that another Christian (Warren) isn’t following the Prime Directives. When I point out that you’re not heeding advice straight from god’s instruction manual on what to do about that, you rag on me for it. Yet somehow, you’re forgiven, while Warren is not.
    Of course, not all Christians DO take it seriously. That was the point of my supposed non sequitur several posts ago: Many of those who claim that god’s word is true demonstrate pretty well that they don’t believe it either, by their behavior.

    ”The problem is, we often fail. Recall “The Good Test”?”
    Yeah, I do. Remember I told you that Jesus himself would probably have failed it?
    It appears that what matters most about that test is not whether you are GOOD, but whether you OBEY. Good people often do evil things in the name of obedience.

    BTW, what would you have said to me if I’d followed Warren’s ‘reasoning’ and converted? Would you still regard me as you do now, or would I be just another stray sheep?

    Like

  21. gmpilot Says:

    Hmm. Those comments in boldface weren’t supposed to be that way. Must have been operator error.

    Like

  22. christinewjc Says:

    Warren’s salvation is between him and God. Whether or not he is saved is known by God, but might not be known by men. Therefore, whether or not he is forgiven remains between him and Christ.

    In a previous comment, I mentioned a verse where it is said that God knows who belongs to Him. He cannot be fooled – but men can be fooled – and often are because they don’t know Scripture.

    Jesus would not have failed The Good Test, GM. On that you are totally wrong. He lived a sinless life, and therefore He was worthy to receive all honor and praise for taking humanity’s place on the cross for the punishment for sin. Accepting the gospel message, believing it, and asking Christ into one’s heart determines where the soul of every man and woman ends up for all eternity.

    You have stated in the past that you were once a Christian. But …were you genuinely born again? If not, then you remain under judgment and will need too face God on your own accord with your sins remaining on your soul. If you were genuinely saved, then you are covered by the blood of Jesus – the new and everlasting covenant.

    When believers go astray (often called backsliding), they are still saved, but may miss out on rewards in eternity. But that’s an entirely new subject.

    The unsaved dead have no hope for repentance. They gave up that choice while they were still alive.

    Like

  23. gmpilot Says:

    I didn’t say anything about Warren’s ‘salvation’. I was talking about what you say he’s guilty of, and your excuses for telling everyone but him about it, and what to do about it.

    “In a previous comment, I mentioned a verse where it is said that God knows who belongs to Him.”
    I said the same thing, did I not? “Who among you can say exactly who is a ‘cancer on the body of Christ’ and who isn’t? Supposedly the Big Guy determines that…”. That’s what I wrote.

    ”Accepting the gospel message, believing it, and asking Christ into one’s heart determines where the soul of every man and woman ends up for all eternity.”
    It does if one’s a Christian, yes. Other people feel differently. But as far as I can determine, all of them are dead and gone, and they’ll never come back. I don’t claim to know anything about their souls.
    In retrospect, I probably would have done the same if I’d been raised a Buddhist or a Muslim. I said the things I was taught to say, I believed the things I was expected to believe; but when I became a man, I concluded I had been sold a bill of goods, and gave it up. You already know that, assuming Christianity is true, that I cannot be comfortable letting someone else take the rap for what I’ve done, even if he wants to. That would be unjust, and immoral.
    I care nothing for your ‘eternity’ stick.

    Now, what about that ‘tall order’ that you SHOULD take seriously? If you’re going to complain to your readers about Warren, then you can complain to Warren about Warren.

    Like

  24. christinewjc Says:

    Apparently, you are not comprehending what I am writing. There isn’t anything more to say to you.

    Like

  25. gmpilot Says:

    More likely, what you’re writing is incomprehensible.
    Goodbye, then.

    Like

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